Podcast

Interview Highlights:

Q1. If you were a superhero, what would your HR themed superpower be?

A. If I were a superhero, I would choose Lord Hanuman. I know you would agree that he’s also a superhero, our monkey God.

So, there are three reasons I would like you to know.

Lord Hanuman as HR themed superhero. He has the power to fly. So, I would like to move from one location to another. We are present in more than 50 locations as far as warehouses are concerned and more than 30 locations as far as offices are concerned. So in my current role, I would just fly from one location to another and be like a superhero and meet people and so on.

The second reason is that I, Lord Hanuman, had the power to move mountain. We know the story of Hanuman where he lifted the entire Donaghi Parvat to bring that Sanjeevani. Because time was the essence so I would move mountains and do things to ensure that we are able reach business and to people on time.

The third reason could be I think the most important one that as the HR you are generally caught between business and employees, so while business blames you at times saying that you are too much, pro employees. The employees would also say that you are just talking in business terms. Both are important stakeholders for HR. So I wish like the way Lord Humman could tear his chest apart and show that in his heart he has both Lord Rama and Goddess Sita. Similarly, I can show. I could show to people that for HR and for me in particular, both are important business as well as people.

Q2. Let’s shift into the world of real life experiences from the world of superheroes. Talk to us about a personal experience or milestone that required you to step outside of your comfort zone and how it propelled your growth as an HR leader.

A. As HR we are required to do various things.

We are required to attract, engage, develop and retain people and all the people practices in HR right from hiring to the assessments, to comp off and then rewards, incentives, learning and development, tail end succession and all those things that we do.

While we do all those things, there is a natural tendency among HR leaders and in particular me to like some part of your role and may be very good in one aspect.

I think I’m quite good in culture, I’m quite good in DEI and in terms of employee engagement. There was no natural inclination toward labour compliances or the IR part of HR, though I have worked in manufacturing organizations and I was so done collective bargaining with trade unions, but this was not my interest area now in my current organization when we are dealing with big customers, the global customers, they’re giants and we are doing warehousing solution for them and for them we are the logistics service provider.

So even if I, if we are employing agency staff or blue collar workers or white collar workers for them, they are all shanker and to ensure that we are fully compliant in terms of international labour organisations requirement be it in the terms of working hours, be in terms of ensuring that we are compliant to all Provident fund, ESIC labour welfare fund as and when applicable, gratuity, filing of returns, paying overtime on time and as per the law.

So I’ve been part of many audits and when you are working in audits and talking to customers and clients and saying that yes you are totally compliant around these areas.

This was not my flair, but I found that this is something which will make the global care account accept us or give us the order or be or take us as their logistics partner. So, it became something very important.

For me to start enjoying and you have to believe me that I really worked hard on this, and I started enjoying it after some time when I was working closely with the workers group, I was working closely with our stat compliance auditors and looking into the reports.

I started enjoying it and I think that the reason I think I enjoyed it was that the customer wanted this and we could get business because of this particular aspect.

So I came out my comfort zone and it also gave me a lot of value to the organization.

Q3. Let’s dive deeper into your journey as an HR leader.

We would love to know a personal reflection on your growth journey as an HR leader. Do highlight key lessons learned and the impact it has had on your approach to leadership.

A. I have worked both in public sector organization and in private sector organization and I’m working currently in a multinational organization. So different kind of organization.

I have worked in sectors like manufacturing, healthcare, services, engineering, consumer durables and currently I’m working in logistics and supply chain. These are quite varied in terms of sectors.

I have also worked on various HR practices which impact individual talent leaders and the organization. So what are the learnings and what made me grow as an HR leader?

I would say that I would say three things.

One how?

Lesson learned: People can see through you.

At times you are just enacting your role. After all it’s a job.

So you would say that OK, when I’m talking to 1 stakeholder which is employees, I would behave like this. If I’m talking to 1 stakeholder which is business, I’ll behave like this. If I’m talking to customers on behalf of the business team, I will speak like this, but then the sooner you are able to Be genuine and transparent.

I think the better because people can see through you. So it’s important to walk the talk to build a long-term credibility and trust in the organization.

Second thing I would say that I learned was that I have to be open to ideas at times when you have in your team people of varied experiences and in various hierarchy.

You’d think that maybe you are right because you are manager and you are supposed to come with solution and you are so well read and so on.

But I think when one is ideating in the team, when one is brainstorming in the team, one should just take away the hat of you being the manager and just be a part of the team to understand that you can have a biased vision.

And many policies that we have changed in the organization, it was because we could talk to people, listen to them. We have changed our travel policies so many times because people in the Connect sessions say that this is not working for us, and we are not happy with it.

I can give you an example that we had this policy of guest house. So people were supposed to stay in guest house and we found that there were various things. People who were managing the guest house were also under pressure because they were not, they were not having the capability of running it like a hotel industry.

So if the guest housekeeper is sleeping at 12:00, the employee who’s travelling late would knock the doors and may not get the same kind of experience. And we moved it. We closed down the guest houses because we got so much of responses from people that we would like to stay in hotels.

Similarly, we had a policy in which people, employees, when they are travelling, had to go down and order food. They can’t have room service for food.

And people said that when we are working late and we come back to our hotel room, it’s too late and we would like to go for that.

We heard them and we changed the policy and we said, OK, you have the flexibility to do this as well. I think being open to ideas has helped me a lot and giving the right solution to the organization.

And one more thing that I can say, the third and the foremost thing is that I think budding HR professionals must come out of your comfort zone and for that it means for us is meet people, talk to business.

Talk to network in the professional circuit also brings ideas from outside in and doesn’t just go for job security. I changed my public sector job to private sector because I thought that I’ll be able to create more value in that in the role which was being offered to me.

So I we should be able to come out of the comfort zone and if we are able to, then what we are preaching to people about change, management and transformation, we should first or first of all apply and experience it ourselves.

Q4. Let’s now pivot into another crucial aspect of your expertise. How do you assess and manage resistance to change within an organization and what strategies do you employ to overcome it?

A. We have recently undergone a huge transformation in the organization, it was global transformation. The aim was to future proof to organization.

We ran the transformation when we were doing our best, the highest revenue we earned in a particular year and in that particular year we started the transformation, which was last year.

We said that we are hugely successful, but times are changing and we also use this famous quote that the best way to predict the future is to create it.

We need to future proof the organization and we focus on three things.

One is customer, one is growth of the organization in terms of all the product and offering and the third was creating a culture which is positive and which is open to change.

But this involved new ways of working, new ways of leadership.

We ran a lot of exercises or workshops around the new leadership principles which are growth oriented, which makes each leader work and inspire the team member. We also changed the entire structure.

We did a lot of restructuring in the organization at a global level which impacted the country organization as well. So obviously there was a very huge resistance in the organization.

There was supposed to be a lot of Grapevine in the organization and but I would say that we have managed this very well. And how did we do it?

If I may say that we did three things.

One is visioning part where the entire board and the CEO in various forums talked about why we are doing this change. And OK, we kept on saying that we are future proofing the organization and everyone wants to be in a winning organization. So we were all glued to it because it will help the organization and so on.

There was also a lot of communication through various channels. We used all kind of channels at a global level, at a regional level, at a country level, even at a managerial level. We used various channels for communicating the same story and we did not make it top down.

In each channel of communication we had, we’re opening to dialogues and there were not many suggestions which came up a lot many queries which came up at times it came through anonymous route.

People also named themselves and a lot of concerns were raised, and we also went back to the drawing board to how we address those concerns. How do we do some tweaking part of it so that we are able to have been win situation?

Q5. Let’s now explore the essential topic of inclusivity in change management.

How do you ensure that the change management process is inclusive and engages employees at all levels of the organization?

A. I think you’re talking about inclusion at all levels.

Otherwise the change will fail or the change will not get the same kind of support from team and we will be half hearted in their approach.

They may not be totally resisting, but they would also be disengaged.

It’s important to make the change management program very inclusive and engaging.

We have done a lot many change management program, be it as simple as coming up with a new HCM tool, coming up with a new operating tool in in in the business where we have said that now this is a way of new behaviour.

It could be as simple as that, moving from the HR team being available to handle your query to moving to work.

Ask P&O kind of service tool.

So all this I think requires a lot of change management and it’s important to make it inclusive and also making it engaging for the people who can speak for you and on your behalf.

Three things I would say.

One is that awareness around change management.

Change management is a skill. All said and done, it’s a mindset change. So we have done a lot, many change management program in the organization. We have run through certification program. We have made HODs and managers capable of being a change leader.

That is one thing that we have made people aware and capable.

One is around communication as I said that using all the Connect forums, be it as big as town halls which are like done at a bigger event to a smaller kind of broadcast to having this huddle meetings and so on.

So using these channels and one and I think the most important thing which is that planning very well any change management program, I think at times you just think that so only a framework change, it’s only structural chain and everyone will agree to it what what is it just announce it, just issue letters and the change is done.

But I think planning it very well and understanding that there is a human psyche involved and human behavior is involved in any change. So going phase wise and in a proper planned approach I think is where we have been able to make the change process very inclusive and very engaging as well.

Q6. Continuing our exploration of inclusivity and employee engagement within the change management initiatives, let’s now delve into a broader spectrum of organizational culture.

How do you ensure that diversity is not just a check box, but a genuine part of the company culture?

A.I think it’s a very important question that how do we ensure the diversity which is such an important thing is not a check box and which is so anything can become a check box, isn’t it?

Even the parenting can be a check box and dealing with the aging parents also become a check box that , OK meet them form a forum, say hi to them in the evening.

But then how do we ensure that it is check box is only one aspect of it. It is important. It is not like either this or that. But then how do we ensure that there’s the element of dynamism within the check box system so there are no easy answers.

At times, diversity just turns out to be a dashboard, a monthly dashboard or a weekly dashboard.

So what we have done is that the most important thing is an understanding and belief that diversity is a journey and equity is a journey, inclusion is a journey.

Look at the world today while we are in the 21st century.

Is it a very peaceful world we still have even after the COVID thing where we thought that the world will is doomed and everyone has learnt lesson and we had. You were saying that people have learned purpose during COVID and everyone had that kind of thing.

We became more spiritual or so on but today we have the world in wars and everywhere there are so many conflicts happening which means that peace, harmony, diversity, having fairness and equity, belongingness they are all journey and we know that there are three kind of diversity in one is demographic which is like a gender, race, sexual orientation with it’s easy to do dashboard thing.

It’s also cognitive diversity and diversity. It’s also experiential diversity where we talk about hobbies and abilities and affinities. So how do how we have made in my organization that it’s a moving thing and not a static thing like a checkbox thing.

2 things I would say is that we are celebrating.

We do a lot of celebration around diversity week, around Pride Month, and a lot of sincerity goes in those celebration at a very high scale. We do it. We invite thought leaders.

This time in the diversity week, we are inviting international leaders. They’re inviting people who are like having physical disability and they are artists. There are people who are using their limbless and they are using maybe one of the limb or mouth to create beautiful art forms.

And then when we invite these thought leaders to speak, what happens that it changes us. We get exposed to what’s happening around it is not just within the organization.

We have this checkbox thing and then second thing is actioning on the ideas. I can tell you with one example that in the Pride month. A few weeks back we had invited a transgender. Obviously she is or more than that only identity.

She is a very well known professional in her own right and she also happens to be transgender and she shared in that journey in that who are talk with us which was very interactive and we did it at an India level. So there were employees who asked a lot of questions.

She shared her journey, issues with her parents who did not accept her initially, the friends, the kind of shame that she had to go through and how, how did she come out of it?

And then in the end she said it might talk is able to bring in your workplace a few more transgenders but then only the action is otherwise everybody would say OK you’re great.

You have done so much and if we feel so novel about it and then we have go back to our work in the same way. So one of the business leaders called us after the meeting and said that I would like to go for hiring of transgender in my team.

And he gave us the mandate basically ran sensitization program for his team exclusively and for the general management team and we were able to sign up with the entity which provides such kind of talents and we were able to hire two of them.

So what I mean to say is that how do we ensure that people not making a tick box by repeating it’s a journey and we are only in we have not reached it and we will never be able to reach it fully.

We have to keep on improving. We’re working on our own biases, the organization’s biases.

And B, whenever we organize such kind of talks or we bring such kind of expert into our fold, we should end up with an action so that there’s a learning around it.

Q7. Now let’s transit into HR technology and look at employee involvement when it comes to embracing technology within the organizations.

How should organizations involve employees in the design and testing of automated HR systems to ensure their usability and effectiveness because at the end of the day, it’s all about looking for maximum adoption and that’s where the success lies?

A. I think HR tech is sitting in the OKRs of all HR leaders.

If we talk about the top three, then definitely it’s culture, this could be leadership and succession and it is HR tech.

And also when we talk about, you’re talking about employee engagement and now we talk about employee experience.

I think in the employee experience piece, while we talk about the workplace, we talk about the culture of the organization impacting employee experience. I think the most important thing which impacts employee experience is HR tech.

I may come to an organization which is a big brand which has the best managers, best leaders but if my interface for applying for leaves or for filling my goals for appraisals or for the learning and development LMS or so on, if they are so they can be deterrence.

They’re right from having multiple passwords to the user interface to getting best out of it and even the reward portal like we have a reward portal and we have done not many changes around it because people found it very why we call it on the spot reward but it takes at least a week to get various approvals done

So, HR tech is so important we there’s no doubt about it and it is one of the key to employee experience sustainable and consistent employee experience. So what have we done and what we, can we should do to ensure that the most important aspect of the employee aspect is taken care of.

So we are going for a huge a change of our HCM.

We have signed up with the big global HCM at A at a global level and obviously this will take 18 months to OK to get go live and it’ll go live in phases.

But what I want to say is that I can share with you what we have done is that when we went, when we even for choosing the HCM which partner we should choose, obviously we invited maybe a couple of them and yeah, before that maybe more of them.

But when we say came to say 4 big names, then we made the HR team and some business leaders participate in the presentations.

And so from India team of maybe say 15 of us, we saw all the four presentations in detail and then in in the scoring part, the country had to give one score but one common score it is not like 15 people will get 15 score sheets.

So there was we, together, sat down, and we responded to the questionnaire and then at the region level we again made an agreed on this response.

So there was a lot of involvement from the grassroots or you can say from the users, employees and they did participate and the HR team directly.

I think this is one of the reasons, one of the best ways to ensure that people who are users should should be allowed to participate in selection of an HCM and you are going to change or bring a new one.

And also whenever we have gone for say the learning and management system, we have always taken feedbacks and even for about 8 years we have regularly taken feedback from the users, beat hiring managers or the recruiters. And we have done by now not many changes, not many iterations.

We have done so, it’s a never ending journey, but I think it’s important to have that element of involvement of users to make it successful.

Q8. Let’s now shift our focus from practical aspects of HR systems to a more personal dimension.

We’d love to hear if there is any particular book or any piece of literature that has played a pivotal role in shaping your perspective and an approach as an HR leader.

A. I love reading books.

The other day I was telling somebody that I love reading books and that person said that now that it’s a part of your essential requirement, if you have to be relevant, you have to read books.

So why are you saying that?

But I would still believe that books have changed me a lot.

I was brought up in a very small town and I had an access to a library and then I was in maybe class 6th or 7th onwards. I was reading the word literature, Russian literature and so on in Hindi and in English.

So I think it has impacted me a lot. But I will talk about maybe three books which are coming to my mind at this moment.

One is like this book called The Prophet by Khalil Gibran.

This book has impacted me. I read it 3 decades back and recently I again got this book as a gift from someone and I was reading it again and I think this book obviously talks aboutmarriage, children, life, death and so on. And it’s very simple read, but it is very insightful.

For example, if I can quote from the book, your children are not your children.

They come from you but not from you and though they are with you yet they belong not to you. So as a parent and you think that your children are only coming from you but they are they are not from you.

So that ownership on your children that people take generally writes whenever the children excel. They make it a point of pride that my son has done great and so on and when they are children don’t do then they start blaming their children.

I think this has opened me open my thoughts that they are individual in itself in themselves and it has also helped me to become more non judgmental, be as parent or as manager.

The other book that I have really loved is Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankel.

Now this book is about this person, though he’s a very famous psychologist about his journey in the concentration camp of Nazis.

But I would talk about this book because I visited it, and I think it has impacted me a lot in the sense that this book talks about having a purpose in life.

And Richter Frankel says that he could come out of the concentration camp because he had a bigger purpose in life. And I believe that and this is also we talk about things which drive us to this purpose.

Obviously expertise is one of them that drives us and there could be other drivers in life, but purpose is a big driver and when we are hiring early talent OR young team members, they always ask that what is the organization’s purpose, what are they doing for society.

And I think having a self purpose in life is so important. It is able to give you a lot of physical and not physical but more of a psychological resilience.

And the third one, I would say it’s a book called Who Moved by Cheese.

It’s very easy read, very thin book and I think everybody would have read it.

There are millions and millions of copies sold Who Moved by Cheese.

But I think it’s so true in the world of today where we say it’s like volatile and uncertain, complex and ambiguous world. Or if even if you say the world is not VUCA but BANI and BANI as in brittle, anxious, non linear or incomprehensible.

I think whenever we try to make meaning of the current world and the uncertainty of the time, this book is helping you to prepare for change and having a good mindset.

So I would in fact like people to definitely read this books.

I’ve enjoyed reading and whenever I have found myself quoting from the book I felt that this book definitely has impacted me in my own personal journey and my effectiveness as HR because HR obviously talks about purpose, HR talks about change management and also about being non-judgmental.